Wonderful essay. The Chekov story and the character's rejection of the party invitation, as well as your line on the defining characteristic of an incel being the debilitating fear of failure, reminded me of "Taxi Driver" when De Niro's character takes his date to a porn theater...Talking about this scene, Paul Schrader said "he doesn’t really want a girl who will accept him, and when it seems as if the Cybill Shepherd character may, then in that unconsciously destructive way he takes her into an environment that will show her his real ugliness so that she will have to reject him."
Thanks man! I actually never thought about that scene in Taxi Driver that way, I always thought it was him thinking in some deranged way that this is the kind of thing women like, which come to think of it makes less sense. - was that an interview with Paul Schrader or some writing?
What's absurd about this is that everyone thinks that every single incel is exactly like this psycho. It's bullshit and it shows that no one, neither men nor certainly women, understand this idea of incel. As far as I am concerned, all of us men are incel unless you married young and had a great sex life your whole life (extremely dubious). Sure some men always have access to pussy no matter what but that's a minority though everyone of both sexes pretends it's normal. The only men who are like this are SOME Chads and probably a lot of Alphas (the two categories are not the same). And the % of incel married men is extremely high, especially in their 30's and 40's after a couple of kids. A lot of women just go on a sex strike or decide they hate sex after that.
Now I've dated maybe 200 women and girls in my life. Pretty good, huh? Not so much. I've also had weeks, months, even years of incelhood. To me this is just normal. Bachelor life is feast or famine, flood or drought. A LOT of men just get married for the regular sex and for no other reason.
Now I'm senior and the dating scene if laughable. Basically no one is having sex. If you get laid once a year, you're a hero. So we're all incel, except a lot of us are now volcel. But if you tell anyone about it, you get, "No way! I know lots of old people who are having tons of sex!" YEAH RIGHT. Basically about 0% of the women my age want to fuck. Well, maybe 1%, let's be generous.
If you can get a young women, good for you, but at my age, they almost all charge, and you have to violate the laws of physics to get one who doesn't. Worse the young women who pay us any attention at all and don't act like they want to murder us (most of them) are often psychopaths who are trying to steal from you or worse. I have to deal with them all the time, even blackmailers, identity thieves, you name it. If these were the only women I had dealt with in my life, I'd hate women as much as Elliot Roger.
It's too much hassle trying to get laid as a single man now that feminists have made it illegal and probably even worse, a firing and even career-destroying offense to so much as ask a woman out or ask her for her number. The vast majority of "sexual harassment" is just some guy flirting or asking some chick out or for her number.
The definition of sexual harassment is insane and could only have been thought up by an irrational woman. "If it makes a woman uncomfortable, it's sexual harassment."
Can you imagine if we had other laws like this? If you make someone/a woman/a kid uncomfortable, you go to jail. What's crazy is women cannot for the life of them see how this is irrational and unfair. This is the female idea of "fairness." That's why I'm not keen on having women make our laws. You always end up with insane laws and rules like this because women don't believe in logic. Women don't think. Women feel. Period.
Incredible! So now women's fickle and typically false emotions carry the day, can get you arrested, fired or have your career wrecked. They've for all intents and purposes made it illegal to even try to get laid.
This is even worse than when I was growing up, and a ton of guys were incel even then.
The catastrophe of it is everyone pretends it's really weird and that any halfway normal guy is getting laid all the time. When I was growing up you could go maybe three weeks without. After that you were some kind of a freak. And the longer you stayed dateless, the more toxic to women you became. This is the problem.
Incelhood literally feeds off itself and over time the cure becomes increasingly difficult if not impossible. I never told women or anyone really if I wasn't getting any for any length of time. I would just play coy and say I don't discuss my sex life. "What makes you think you know about my sex life anyway? Who says I'm not dating anyone? Who says I'm not getting any sex? Says who?"
Obviously the cure for any incel (normal) man is, "Whoa! You're single! You're a hot guy! I know a lot of single women I could fix you up with!" At the very least, "Oh, I'm sorry, man. I've been there." Instead it's nothing but contempt, often of the worst kind. It's thought if you're not getting any sex, somehow that means you can't possibly get laid even with God's help. It's a rare man who will help you get laid. You will be lucky he doesn't laugh in your face. Women though, especially married women, will definitely fix you up. God bless em.
I've known all sorts of men who were incel for weeks or months or even more than a year. Almost all of them were completely normal in every way. They just had bad luck or better yet were just shy around women mostly because women shamed them for daring to have a sex drive.
I've even known some guys who were furious at women for treating them like shit their whole lives. Some of these guys were virgins in their 30's and 50's. They were all basically normal too. If you met them you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with them.
By saying in this piece that "incel" is some weird thing that only Elliot Roger and Travis Bickle suffer from, you're playing into the hands of the Feminist Enemy.
Bottom line? "Incel," I'm afraid, is more or less normal. Long-term incel, especially lifelong, is not so normal, but you would be stunned at how many men are like this, especially young men.
I can predict right now the response to this comment from both men and women.
"LOL LINDSAY CAN'T GET LAID! LINDSAY'S AN INCEL LOL LOL LOL! WHAT A LOSER! NO WOMAN WANTS HIM LOL LOL LOL!"
Problem is I'm telling the straight up truth here. So this is what happens if you tell the truth about incelhood and incels: you can get tagged as an incel for all of time. Aren't people wonderful?
I think the part about 'deterministic narratives' is spot on, and opens up to another angle of viewing.
There's sort of two broad perspectives you can bring to bear on the modern incel:
1. That he is nothing new, placing him in the historical context of alienated young men (e.g. as characterized in literature), or
2. That he is something historically novel and a unique product of modern forces.
I think both models are correct in their own way. We've always had men on the margins of sociosexual success (as the evolutionary psychologists call it), but the permutation (and prevalence) of that under present historical conditions is something new.
For example, what distinguishes Dostoevsky's Underground Man from the modern incel is this biological determinism - the measuring of height, frame, muscularity, facial physiognomy, and so on, and the placing of these metrics in a pseudoscientific context.
For me, the modern aspect of the incel is his extrapolation of scientific reductionism into the realm of the extreme.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is both a novel and perennial phenomenon. Your point about scientific reductionism is spot one as well - an extension of a rational epistemology into a secular theological worldview, facts and data instead of prayers and devotion; but instilling despair instead of a quiet hope for salvation.
Interesting read. I think I need to read it not on my phone though to do so properly.
Another good film dealing with the vicissitudes of affect, desire and death drive in contemporary culture, among other proto- incel themes, is David Hare’s Wetherby from the 80s. A beautiful film in many ways, In my opinion anyway, though I have yet to see it referenced in any incel-adjacent milieu. Or memefied for that matter. But I am out of loop, as they say…
Sorry for the other comments. I figured this was a typical shit (all of them) incel article. Turns out it wasn't. Apologies.
"I can’t claim to have been an incel."
Sure, stud. You have never had a period in your life when you desperately wanted to be having sex but weren't getting any? That's like...a normal thing.
Few other things here. Incels haven't all given up trying. I used to hang on their forums though I'm not one of them either. On the main incel forum, the new rule is you must be a virgin. They had a big fight about men who have been buying escorts, and they finally let them in. It's interesting that even when they buy escorts, that doesn't fix the problem even 1%, which shows it's not just about sex.
There was a guy on there who posted, "I Will Ask out 1,000 Women!" and he did just that, keeping a running tally all the time. He almost got the cops called on him a few times, but he did complete the task. He was the hero of the board. I thought you said they don't try or don't want to try? This guy tried and the fact that he was their hero showed most of them wanted to try. He had four dates, all single date only, and no sex at all on any of them, not even a kiss.
They don't even want to try? That's not true either. I posted on incel sites a bit very carefully because it's an immediate ban if you ever admit to having had any kind of sex, and I was finally banned.
I'd also like to point out that incel boards are swarming with non-incels. Some are asshole trolls and they get banned right away. But a lot are sympathetic and as I've noted, we're all incel for some periods of time or another probably. It's the normal state of modern man at least.
And some of these guys are even Chads or guys who get tons of sex. Yet there they are on the incel boards, commiserating with the incels. The weird thing is most Chads are really nice to incels. They talk about it on the boards. It's the Alphas that are probably pricks towards them, though maybe not all Alphas.
But I used to get mails on those sites all the time from incels saying things like, "I would literally kill to even make out with a woman one time in my entire life. Then I could die happy." They don't want to try? Actually those emails made me sad as Hell!
Sure a lot of them hate women. Who could blame them? You hit a man enough times, he might just start hitting back. Most of those guys have been treated like complete shit by females their whole lives. But 22% of them didn't hate women at all, not even a tiny bit. I did my own survey. Many of them seemed to suffer from crippling social phobia.
The incel boards defines incel as "virgin." And most haven't done a thing with even one woman ever. There are KV's (kissless virgins), KHV's - (kissless hugless virgins), and KHHV's - (kissless hugless, handholdless virgins). Maybe I'm a softie but when I read those guy's stories they were absolutely heartbreaking. I try to imagine myself living their lives and I just can't. It seems like I would have killed myself.
These are not guys who made out a hundred times but never formally stuck it in, who IMHO as absolutely not virgins in any way and in fact, they're practically studs. These guys are "pures." Yes, it is called ascending and that shows right there that they want to try at least. And they ascend all the time on those boards.
The actual formal definition is any man who wanted sex and has gone at least six months without having sex. Which, as Thom Hartmann said, "That's half of single people right there."
Hi Robert, cheers for all the comments - I thought I was clear that this essay's motivations are impressionistic instead of sociological, etc. I'm attempting to get at something which I think, at this point, actually goes beyond the definitions of the self-identified, and speaks to something more universal in contemporary culture.
I think you're fixating on the formal definitions, and focusing on sex, but I did write:
'It should be clear, however, that the incel is not celibate in the cause of sex, but impoverished by the cause of desire. And all desire, as René Girard maintained, is a desire for being.'
No worries, could I possibly ask you to clean up some of the langauge in your other comments? You're entitled to your opinion, but I think its possible to communicate what you mean without some of the abrasiveness.
Gold mine rabbit hole, the artist Henry Flynt is considered the first to coin the term involuntary celibate, he explains the phenomena and reach to the same points you go to. Won't talk much of it, it's just so good.
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As for the theme here, I just have so much to say...
I see incelism –in the same way I see the neurodivergent/autistic stuff– as a sign of our failure as a society and culture and therefore of being human (for your academic type this later sound ambigous, but come on, we are fucked) which indeed is what you repeteadly states here.
It's all socio-cultural, all that *means*. Once you get this insight you see through the facade, you certainly are aware of the work Social Construction of Reality. It's all there. Being a man is only recognized as such among other men (and women) and this varies radically from one place to another, but indeed there's an essence that tends to be involved on it and never goes away, which is capitalism, this parasite that destroys all social relations, the cash-nexus, that what makes relationships go (as in this trendy word) 'transactional', which is alienation, of a kind that reach an unprecedented level with internet.
You probably have read my revelation, of what the whore of Babylon is. Shocking isn't it?
In spite of that I don't hate women, I just realized what it is about, the reason they “fornicate with the market” is because the ego of women in contrast with that of man blend more in, it's like water in the taoist sense, it is the fucking womb, it is paradox, *it is*.
It's not like the agressive phallic dialectics of man (Jesus: “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.”), that moves, to reach a higher point... which is Her.
(Of course, important is pointing here that some men, lots of them actually are aggressive-phallic only and nothing more, assholes.)
The problem is that women are simply helpless in her being.. alone haha!... they prefer to be gang raped (or to rape others) in the market-world of the covetous man, as is observable in the feminist ideology of the last decades.
Lots of men simply give up on all that and then some blame the world with “deterministic narratives” you said. They also dig deeper on their own selves onanistically, which is made so easy in late-stage capitalism...
And if this is happening in a large scaele –men giving up on participation– it's because we all failed, society is dead, or dying, with help of machinery to keep it alive, quite literally.
(Above was a thing of ramblituous nature, I have much more to say, the psychological aspect for example, castration complex, maturity and growth, highly involved on all that.. I'm feeling this is inadequate, here it is anyway)
"I see incelism –in the same way I see the neurodivergent/autistic stuff– as a sign of our failure as a society and culture and therefore of being human"
See? Define "incel." What does it mean? 30% of young men aged 18-30 had ZERO SEX last year. ZERO. Incel is...normal, I'm afraid. And we're all incel for various periods in our lives unless we're Hugh Hefner.
What you're saying is any man who goes without sex for any length of time is autistic or neurodivergent?
You realize that in many parts of the world, this is just normal? In the Arab World, in India, if you're not married, you aren't getting any pussy, period. You want pussy? Get yourself a wife.
A friend of mine is a Brahmin Indian. He told me he was a virgin when he married at age 32. So was his wife. He told me that this was absolutely normal for Brahmin man, to have no sex until marriage and even to marry fairly late. He felt zero shame over this, and no one had hassled him over it.
Why is guys going for periods of no sex (a normal thing) a sign of our society's failure? I'm confused.
Yes I did fuck up in not being clear, by incelism I mean the subculture which is quite large, I mean exactly the ones who self consciously claim to be incel, it's bullshit, one of the biggest hoaxes of this century, they blame the world in not getting pussy, I'm not saying it is easy, but it's fully the choice of the man, there's no determinism behind. To get the pussy strife is necessary, that's what being a man is after all, the incel chose to not play the game because it is all so broken really, which is exactly what both me and the author wrote about extensively (with me especially pointing out the whorishness of women, the taboo).
As for neurodivergent which I wasn't clear as well, I mean it's not different, those labelled as such are clearly failures of persons in an incrasingly broken society not what they claim to be.
The incel subculture means guys who have never had sex and generally have never either held hands with, hugged, or kissed a woman. They're all virgins. Having sex one time is a disqualification.
"they blame the world in not getting pussy,"
They blame women.
"but it's fully the choice of the man"
I dunno bro. I'm 66 years old and I want to get laid right now, and there's no way to do that. Want to show me how that's some choice of mine? Want to show me exactly how I can go and get laid tonight or even once for the rest of this year maybe? I'm all ears.
"the incel chose to not play the game"
But that's not true. A number of them are trying. See my post above about the incel who posted, "I Will Ask out 1,000 Women!" and then did just that.
"As for neurodivergent which I wasn't clear as well, I mean it's not different, those labelled as such are clearly failures of persons in an increasingly broken society not what they claim to be."
Of course there's a way to get laid.. but that's what I said, the strife, you need some, indeed, lots of effort to get her into bed, huh. The easiest currently available is a hooker lolz. You will only need the money (for a ‘normal woman’ you will need the money and the emotional game)
Yeah you're right incels actually try, and how hard some of them do try.. to fail, forgot about this fundamental fact, am out of touch with that recently.
Whores don’t count. I don’t know what planet you’re on, but women don’t exactly give it away you know.
In my opinion most guys can’t really get laid or maybe better yet can hardly get laid.
First woman gives them regular sex they marry her up because they want regular sex and can hardly get laid being single.
I’m not going to pursue this conversation any further. “Any man can get laid anytime he wants.”
ALL liberal and Leftist men say this stupid shit. I guess they’re all studs. Nope. I guess they’re all lying!
THIS IS HOW WOMEN THINK. THIS IS FEMINISM.
Liberal and Leftist men think like this BECAUSE THEY HAVE ADOPTED THE WORLDVIEW OF WOMEN. Notice these fucks have abandoned all male thinking. Why have they done this? BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL FEMINISTS.
Feminism is simply the worldview of women, much of which is fucked up, stupid, and flat out wrong. It constructs this FALSE worldview as an always correct form of ideological politics, then reifies it or sacralizes it by turning it into a FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGION.
Every woman I’ve ever met told me this - any man can get laid any time he wants. See, women can obviously get laid anytime they want. Poor babies! They got it so hard! 😂 cry me a river, ladies! Oh boo hoo!
They all say, “Well all he has to do is go to a bar.” 😂 women ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS SHIT!
See the woman is a SOLIPSIST par excellence. A woman can get laid anytime she wants; therefore a man can get laid any time he wants! They can’t put themselves in the mind of a man.
After age 40, they get very curious about what it’s like to be a man, and they’re often floored by how shitty it is compared to easy mode female living. They sort of start to figure it out. But most of them never get it.
All I have to say is that if all I had to go to get laid was go to a bar I would have been sitting in a bar much of my life.
🤣🤣🤣 twas a good exchange man, some common sense at last.
I'm not from Amerika, I don't really grasp how fouled up it is there, as an outsider americans are buncha weirdos for me, a different breed of apes, a souless culture for sure, which manifests in this *fucked up* sexuality.
Good essay. The idea that the incel is paralyzed by fear of failure seems correct. But why has this paralysis become endemic across our culture at this moment? There are many possible explanations, and a "root causes" response may be worth thinking about, even if it cannot be executed as a practical matter. But for young men who have given up and who form communities of people who believe themselves doomed to defeat, something aimed at them, at relieving their misery and giving them motives to use their one and only life and whatever gifts and talents they may have is an urgent need. If I knew the magic words, I would say them ...
I’m not sure, but I don’t think theres ever existed a situation where people were regularly forced to confront the discord between their sense of self and its virtual projection, and the feeling that all of their actions, sentiments and decisions are subject to scrutiny and judgment, even though they aren’t. The only solution I have come up is refusal and disconnection, which I’m incapable of myself.
Yes. It is easy to imagine oneself to be on a brightly lit stage all day, when living too much online. As Ian Curtis sang -- all my failures exposed. But in fact, if everyone is open to scrutiny, few actually are, unless the come to the attention of the supercomputers operated by the government, because no one has time to pay attention. Young men, and all of us, are almost as anonymous as we have always been. Refusal and disconnection is the theoretical answer which is almost impossible in practice, agreed. Nonetheless, I have never had a television, which helps. And never was on Twitter, or Instagram, which also helps. But I am old, and for young men, those are the realms of daily human interaction. Admonishing them to go outside won't work, unless others go outside at the same time. Very sad. I will continue to pray for the wellbeing of the young men and women of today, which I believe has efficacy, and if I cannot see it.
"Admonishing them to go outside won't work, unless others go outside at the same time."
This often doesn't work. I've been banned from two Starbucks stores for literally "talking to humans." Yeah I talked to people. And I guess they didn't like it or didn't want me talking to them. I never asked out a soul or flirted with one woman. I wish I would have but I never got a vibe. I just talked about normal things. I'm not a social retard. I think it's just age.
All this started happening at age 47 and it's only accelerated since. And young women HATE middle aged and older men. I was stunned at how much they hate us. I can't have any sort of conversation at all with just about any younger woman. Just forget it. They won't talk to me about anything ever!
It may work better for young guys. Old guys like us, not so much. There’s definitely been a major shift in social norms in the last few years. It is simply not possible to strike up conversations with strangers most of the time, and I would say never with women. All social interactions are mediated through cell phone apps. You don’t meet new people just by talking to them randomly in public. That is perceived as weird and threatening. Further, you are right, old dudes are definitely disliked. It’s a tough world!
Elderly is different from reasonably spry late middle aged. Obvious grandpa is obviously non-threatening. Different vibe. Late middle aged guy might, just might, be hitting on a young woman, which is totally ewwwww.
And really elderly people grew up in such a totally different world that they still just talk to people and don't know they're not supposed to.
Agreed that people who grew up entirely in cellphone-world are weirded out by conversation, generally, and can barely get out a coherent sentence amidst a cloud of umm, y'know, like, ahhh, yeah, so ... Sad!
And if I strike up a conversation, there’s automatically a sexual overtone assumed with women. There’s an easy cure for that- just mention a husband or a boyfriend.
With men I don’t get it, but I’ve noticed a lot of young men won’t talk to middle aged and older men. There’s some insane new social rule with these idiot young people that says, “People should only talk to people their own age." It’s EXTREMELY CREEPY for someone to try to talk to anyone outside their age group.” That’s absolutely ridiculous and it’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
These new social rules seem to be all about making us a more and more unfriendly and antisocial society. It’s all being done under some “war on creepiness” rubric.
One thing I like about Arab culture is this idea of a “society of men.” In their society men create their own all male culture. Old men, middle aged men, young men, teenage boys, and even little boys all hang out together in large groups and anyone can talk to anyone. Of course there's pretty much zero male homosexuality in that culture, so that fixes one problem. A lot of young men and teenage boys will think I'm trying to have sex with them if I talk to them.
I have Indian friends and they told me that in India, a lot of young men would be extremely respectful towards me and would regard me as “wise.” I get that from some young Arab men - an extremely deferential attitude, calling me sir, etc. Even a few young Hispanic men do that to me - are extremely deferential and call me wise.
I don’t think we revere elders at all in our society. I think we hate them.
I can’t talk to a lot of young people of either sex, honestly. Lot of young men won’t talk to me either.
I’m pretty sure they think I’m going to hit on them sexually. It’s a warranted concern because if they’re extremely friendly and single, perhaps I might ask them out. I still do that you know.
When I was young and goodlooking, everybody talked to me. This crap started at age 47 and has accelerated every year since. Men will definitely talk to me though. Men of all ages, young men, middle aged men, and older men.
Some women my age will absolutely talk to me though, so I doubt if it’s me.
"The idea that the incel is paralyzed by fear of failure seems correct."
Of course he is. But so are lots of shy or introverted men who have had sex and some of whom have had LOTS of sex. Women don't exactly make it easy, and society doesn't encourage you at all. In fact, the entire society seems to be involved in a conspiracy to keep you from getting laid, especially nowadays.
That’s my favourite work of his, the first one I read when I was in first year of uni. I do write about Mishima, but sadly not on the books themselves…I did want to include more writers but the book is very long already. And I think also that there is a great deal more that goes into Mishima’s work that is specific to the Japanese tradition - as colleagues in that field told me - and is also at odds with the European writers I look at, and I sadly don’t read Japanese beyond a very basic level.
"The youths of The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea strike me as paradigmatic proto-incels."
See? This is what everyone thinks. One or more of those boys was a psychopath. They get more pussy than all the rest of us put together. The worst men get the most women.
I sought to dispel the aura around McLuhan in my stack. Library had a book of essays in the 800s Contra Mc Luhan and one of those did better than I could saying his behavior was to live in leafy suburbs and enjoy while people lost contact with each other in touchless memes. Now am going to think of him as the goose who laid early memes, his preferred communication bespeaks boosterism and the least thought possible.
Wonderful essay. The Chekov story and the character's rejection of the party invitation, as well as your line on the defining characteristic of an incel being the debilitating fear of failure, reminded me of "Taxi Driver" when De Niro's character takes his date to a porn theater...Talking about this scene, Paul Schrader said "he doesn’t really want a girl who will accept him, and when it seems as if the Cybill Shepherd character may, then in that unconsciously destructive way he takes her into an environment that will show her his real ugliness so that she will have to reject him."
Thanks man! I actually never thought about that scene in Taxi Driver that way, I always thought it was him thinking in some deranged way that this is the kind of thing women like, which come to think of it makes less sense. - was that an interview with Paul Schrader or some writing?
It’s from a collection of interviews that was published as the book “Schrader on Schrader”
https://books.google.ca/books/about/Schrader_on_Schrader.html?id=SKt2QgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
What's absurd about this is that everyone thinks that every single incel is exactly like this psycho. It's bullshit and it shows that no one, neither men nor certainly women, understand this idea of incel. As far as I am concerned, all of us men are incel unless you married young and had a great sex life your whole life (extremely dubious). Sure some men always have access to pussy no matter what but that's a minority though everyone of both sexes pretends it's normal. The only men who are like this are SOME Chads and probably a lot of Alphas (the two categories are not the same). And the % of incel married men is extremely high, especially in their 30's and 40's after a couple of kids. A lot of women just go on a sex strike or decide they hate sex after that.
Now I've dated maybe 200 women and girls in my life. Pretty good, huh? Not so much. I've also had weeks, months, even years of incelhood. To me this is just normal. Bachelor life is feast or famine, flood or drought. A LOT of men just get married for the regular sex and for no other reason.
Now I'm senior and the dating scene if laughable. Basically no one is having sex. If you get laid once a year, you're a hero. So we're all incel, except a lot of us are now volcel. But if you tell anyone about it, you get, "No way! I know lots of old people who are having tons of sex!" YEAH RIGHT. Basically about 0% of the women my age want to fuck. Well, maybe 1%, let's be generous.
If you can get a young women, good for you, but at my age, they almost all charge, and you have to violate the laws of physics to get one who doesn't. Worse the young women who pay us any attention at all and don't act like they want to murder us (most of them) are often psychopaths who are trying to steal from you or worse. I have to deal with them all the time, even blackmailers, identity thieves, you name it. If these were the only women I had dealt with in my life, I'd hate women as much as Elliot Roger.
It's too much hassle trying to get laid as a single man now that feminists have made it illegal and probably even worse, a firing and even career-destroying offense to so much as ask a woman out or ask her for her number. The vast majority of "sexual harassment" is just some guy flirting or asking some chick out or for her number.
The definition of sexual harassment is insane and could only have been thought up by an irrational woman. "If it makes a woman uncomfortable, it's sexual harassment."
Can you imagine if we had other laws like this? If you make someone/a woman/a kid uncomfortable, you go to jail. What's crazy is women cannot for the life of them see how this is irrational and unfair. This is the female idea of "fairness." That's why I'm not keen on having women make our laws. You always end up with insane laws and rules like this because women don't believe in logic. Women don't think. Women feel. Period.
Incredible! So now women's fickle and typically false emotions carry the day, can get you arrested, fired or have your career wrecked. They've for all intents and purposes made it illegal to even try to get laid.
This is even worse than when I was growing up, and a ton of guys were incel even then.
The catastrophe of it is everyone pretends it's really weird and that any halfway normal guy is getting laid all the time. When I was growing up you could go maybe three weeks without. After that you were some kind of a freak. And the longer you stayed dateless, the more toxic to women you became. This is the problem.
Incelhood literally feeds off itself and over time the cure becomes increasingly difficult if not impossible. I never told women or anyone really if I wasn't getting any for any length of time. I would just play coy and say I don't discuss my sex life. "What makes you think you know about my sex life anyway? Who says I'm not dating anyone? Who says I'm not getting any sex? Says who?"
Obviously the cure for any incel (normal) man is, "Whoa! You're single! You're a hot guy! I know a lot of single women I could fix you up with!" At the very least, "Oh, I'm sorry, man. I've been there." Instead it's nothing but contempt, often of the worst kind. It's thought if you're not getting any sex, somehow that means you can't possibly get laid even with God's help. It's a rare man who will help you get laid. You will be lucky he doesn't laugh in your face. Women though, especially married women, will definitely fix you up. God bless em.
I've known all sorts of men who were incel for weeks or months or even more than a year. Almost all of them were completely normal in every way. They just had bad luck or better yet were just shy around women mostly because women shamed them for daring to have a sex drive.
I've even known some guys who were furious at women for treating them like shit their whole lives. Some of these guys were virgins in their 30's and 50's. They were all basically normal too. If you met them you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with them.
By saying in this piece that "incel" is some weird thing that only Elliot Roger and Travis Bickle suffer from, you're playing into the hands of the Feminist Enemy.
Bottom line? "Incel," I'm afraid, is more or less normal. Long-term incel, especially lifelong, is not so normal, but you would be stunned at how many men are like this, especially young men.
I can predict right now the response to this comment from both men and women.
"LOL LINDSAY CAN'T GET LAID! LINDSAY'S AN INCEL LOL LOL LOL! WHAT A LOSER! NO WOMAN WANTS HIM LOL LOL LOL!"
Problem is I'm telling the straight up truth here. So this is what happens if you tell the truth about incelhood and incels: you can get tagged as an incel for all of time. Aren't people wonderful?
My brother please go to therapy
Shut up.
I think the part about 'deterministic narratives' is spot on, and opens up to another angle of viewing.
There's sort of two broad perspectives you can bring to bear on the modern incel:
1. That he is nothing new, placing him in the historical context of alienated young men (e.g. as characterized in literature), or
2. That he is something historically novel and a unique product of modern forces.
I think both models are correct in their own way. We've always had men on the margins of sociosexual success (as the evolutionary psychologists call it), but the permutation (and prevalence) of that under present historical conditions is something new.
For example, what distinguishes Dostoevsky's Underground Man from the modern incel is this biological determinism - the measuring of height, frame, muscularity, facial physiognomy, and so on, and the placing of these metrics in a pseudoscientific context.
For me, the modern aspect of the incel is his extrapolation of scientific reductionism into the realm of the extreme.
Great piece, and very much enjoyed it!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is both a novel and perennial phenomenon. Your point about scientific reductionism is spot one as well - an extension of a rational epistemology into a secular theological worldview, facts and data instead of prayers and devotion; but instilling despair instead of a quiet hope for salvation.
Interesting read. I think I need to read it not on my phone though to do so properly.
Another good film dealing with the vicissitudes of affect, desire and death drive in contemporary culture, among other proto- incel themes, is David Hare’s Wetherby from the 80s. A beautiful film in many ways, In my opinion anyway, though I have yet to see it referenced in any incel-adjacent milieu. Or memefied for that matter. But I am out of loop, as they say…
Thanks for the rec! Need to check it out
Incels are incels because of the own fear and the fear of the world. The fear tells them "you are not good enough."
Sorry for the other comments. I figured this was a typical shit (all of them) incel article. Turns out it wasn't. Apologies.
"I can’t claim to have been an incel."
Sure, stud. You have never had a period in your life when you desperately wanted to be having sex but weren't getting any? That's like...a normal thing.
Few other things here. Incels haven't all given up trying. I used to hang on their forums though I'm not one of them either. On the main incel forum, the new rule is you must be a virgin. They had a big fight about men who have been buying escorts, and they finally let them in. It's interesting that even when they buy escorts, that doesn't fix the problem even 1%, which shows it's not just about sex.
There was a guy on there who posted, "I Will Ask out 1,000 Women!" and he did just that, keeping a running tally all the time. He almost got the cops called on him a few times, but he did complete the task. He was the hero of the board. I thought you said they don't try or don't want to try? This guy tried and the fact that he was their hero showed most of them wanted to try. He had four dates, all single date only, and no sex at all on any of them, not even a kiss.
They don't even want to try? That's not true either. I posted on incel sites a bit very carefully because it's an immediate ban if you ever admit to having had any kind of sex, and I was finally banned.
I'd also like to point out that incel boards are swarming with non-incels. Some are asshole trolls and they get banned right away. But a lot are sympathetic and as I've noted, we're all incel for some periods of time or another probably. It's the normal state of modern man at least.
And some of these guys are even Chads or guys who get tons of sex. Yet there they are on the incel boards, commiserating with the incels. The weird thing is most Chads are really nice to incels. They talk about it on the boards. It's the Alphas that are probably pricks towards them, though maybe not all Alphas.
But I used to get mails on those sites all the time from incels saying things like, "I would literally kill to even make out with a woman one time in my entire life. Then I could die happy." They don't want to try? Actually those emails made me sad as Hell!
Sure a lot of them hate women. Who could blame them? You hit a man enough times, he might just start hitting back. Most of those guys have been treated like complete shit by females their whole lives. But 22% of them didn't hate women at all, not even a tiny bit. I did my own survey. Many of them seemed to suffer from crippling social phobia.
The incel boards defines incel as "virgin." And most haven't done a thing with even one woman ever. There are KV's (kissless virgins), KHV's - (kissless hugless virgins), and KHHV's - (kissless hugless, handholdless virgins). Maybe I'm a softie but when I read those guy's stories they were absolutely heartbreaking. I try to imagine myself living their lives and I just can't. It seems like I would have killed myself.
These are not guys who made out a hundred times but never formally stuck it in, who IMHO as absolutely not virgins in any way and in fact, they're practically studs. These guys are "pures." Yes, it is called ascending and that shows right there that they want to try at least. And they ascend all the time on those boards.
The actual formal definition is any man who wanted sex and has gone at least six months without having sex. Which, as Thom Hartmann said, "That's half of single people right there."
Hi Robert, cheers for all the comments - I thought I was clear that this essay's motivations are impressionistic instead of sociological, etc. I'm attempting to get at something which I think, at this point, actually goes beyond the definitions of the self-identified, and speaks to something more universal in contemporary culture.
I think you're fixating on the formal definitions, and focusing on sex, but I did write:
'It should be clear, however, that the incel is not celibate in the cause of sex, but impoverished by the cause of desire. And all desire, as René Girard maintained, is a desire for being.'
Yes I got that. I shot off my mouth before I even read it. However some incels do try. Ascending is a regular thing on incel sites.
I get where you are at though. Most essays on this subject are complete shit, and I figured this was one more. I was wrong.
No worries, could I possibly ask you to clean up some of the langauge in your other comments? You're entitled to your opinion, but I think its possible to communicate what you mean without some of the abrasiveness.
Sure I can do that. I'll edit out all of the harshness in tone. Neither of you deserve it anyway.
cheers
https://incels.wiki/w/Creep_(book_chapter)
Gold mine rabbit hole, the artist Henry Flynt is considered the first to coin the term involuntary celibate, he explains the phenomena and reach to the same points you go to. Won't talk much of it, it's just so good.
--------------------
As for the theme here, I just have so much to say...
I see incelism –in the same way I see the neurodivergent/autistic stuff– as a sign of our failure as a society and culture and therefore of being human (for your academic type this later sound ambigous, but come on, we are fucked) which indeed is what you repeteadly states here.
It's all socio-cultural, all that *means*. Once you get this insight you see through the facade, you certainly are aware of the work Social Construction of Reality. It's all there. Being a man is only recognized as such among other men (and women) and this varies radically from one place to another, but indeed there's an essence that tends to be involved on it and never goes away, which is capitalism, this parasite that destroys all social relations, the cash-nexus, that what makes relationships go (as in this trendy word) 'transactional', which is alienation, of a kind that reach an unprecedented level with internet.
You probably have read my revelation, of what the whore of Babylon is. Shocking isn't it?
In spite of that I don't hate women, I just realized what it is about, the reason they “fornicate with the market” is because the ego of women in contrast with that of man blend more in, it's like water in the taoist sense, it is the fucking womb, it is paradox, *it is*.
It's not like the agressive phallic dialectics of man (Jesus: “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.”), that moves, to reach a higher point... which is Her.
(Of course, important is pointing here that some men, lots of them actually are aggressive-phallic only and nothing more, assholes.)
The problem is that women are simply helpless in her being.. alone haha!... they prefer to be gang raped (or to rape others) in the market-world of the covetous man, as is observable in the feminist ideology of the last decades.
Lots of men simply give up on all that and then some blame the world with “deterministic narratives” you said. They also dig deeper on their own selves onanistically, which is made so easy in late-stage capitalism...
And if this is happening in a large scaele –men giving up on participation– it's because we all failed, society is dead, or dying, with help of machinery to keep it alive, quite literally.
(Above was a thing of ramblituous nature, I have much more to say, the psychological aspect for example, castration complex, maturity and growth, highly involved on all that.. I'm feeling this is inadequate, here it is anyway)
"I see incelism –in the same way I see the neurodivergent/autistic stuff– as a sign of our failure as a society and culture and therefore of being human"
See? Define "incel." What does it mean? 30% of young men aged 18-30 had ZERO SEX last year. ZERO. Incel is...normal, I'm afraid. And we're all incel for various periods in our lives unless we're Hugh Hefner.
What you're saying is any man who goes without sex for any length of time is autistic or neurodivergent?
You realize that in many parts of the world, this is just normal? In the Arab World, in India, if you're not married, you aren't getting any pussy, period. You want pussy? Get yourself a wife.
A friend of mine is a Brahmin Indian. He told me he was a virgin when he married at age 32. So was his wife. He told me that this was absolutely normal for Brahmin man, to have no sex until marriage and even to marry fairly late. He felt zero shame over this, and no one had hassled him over it.
Why is guys going for periods of no sex (a normal thing) a sign of our society's failure? I'm confused.
Yeah women are whores, you got that part right.
Yes I did fuck up in not being clear, by incelism I mean the subculture which is quite large, I mean exactly the ones who self consciously claim to be incel, it's bullshit, one of the biggest hoaxes of this century, they blame the world in not getting pussy, I'm not saying it is easy, but it's fully the choice of the man, there's no determinism behind. To get the pussy strife is necessary, that's what being a man is after all, the incel chose to not play the game because it is all so broken really, which is exactly what both me and the author wrote about extensively (with me especially pointing out the whorishness of women, the taboo).
As for neurodivergent which I wasn't clear as well, I mean it's not different, those labelled as such are clearly failures of persons in an incrasingly broken society not what they claim to be.
The incel subculture means guys who have never had sex and generally have never either held hands with, hugged, or kissed a woman. They're all virgins. Having sex one time is a disqualification.
"they blame the world in not getting pussy,"
They blame women.
"but it's fully the choice of the man"
I dunno bro. I'm 66 years old and I want to get laid right now, and there's no way to do that. Want to show me how that's some choice of mine? Want to show me exactly how I can go and get laid tonight or even once for the rest of this year maybe? I'm all ears.
"the incel chose to not play the game"
But that's not true. A number of them are trying. See my post above about the incel who posted, "I Will Ask out 1,000 Women!" and then did just that.
"As for neurodivergent which I wasn't clear as well, I mean it's not different, those labelled as such are clearly failures of persons in an increasingly broken society not what they claim to be."
Not following here either.
Of course there's a way to get laid.. but that's what I said, the strife, you need some, indeed, lots of effort to get her into bed, huh. The easiest currently available is a hooker lolz. You will only need the money (for a ‘normal woman’ you will need the money and the emotional game)
Yeah you're right incels actually try, and how hard some of them do try.. to fail, forgot about this fundamental fact, am out of touch with that recently.
Whores don’t count. I don’t know what planet you’re on, but women don’t exactly give it away you know.
In my opinion most guys can’t really get laid or maybe better yet can hardly get laid.
First woman gives them regular sex they marry her up because they want regular sex and can hardly get laid being single.
I’m not going to pursue this conversation any further. “Any man can get laid anytime he wants.”
ALL liberal and Leftist men say this stupid shit. I guess they’re all studs. Nope. I guess they’re all lying!
THIS IS HOW WOMEN THINK. THIS IS FEMINISM.
Liberal and Leftist men think like this BECAUSE THEY HAVE ADOPTED THE WORLDVIEW OF WOMEN. Notice these fucks have abandoned all male thinking. Why have they done this? BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL FEMINISTS.
Feminism is simply the worldview of women, much of which is fucked up, stupid, and flat out wrong. It constructs this FALSE worldview as an always correct form of ideological politics, then reifies it or sacralizes it by turning it into a FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGION.
Every woman I’ve ever met told me this - any man can get laid any time he wants. See, women can obviously get laid anytime they want. Poor babies! They got it so hard! 😂 cry me a river, ladies! Oh boo hoo!
They all say, “Well all he has to do is go to a bar.” 😂 women ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS SHIT!
See the woman is a SOLIPSIST par excellence. A woman can get laid anytime she wants; therefore a man can get laid any time he wants! They can’t put themselves in the mind of a man.
After age 40, they get very curious about what it’s like to be a man, and they’re often floored by how shitty it is compared to easy mode female living. They sort of start to figure it out. But most of them never get it.
All I have to say is that if all I had to go to get laid was go to a bar I would have been sitting in a bar much of my life.
🤣🤣🤣 twas a good exchange man, some common sense at last.
I'm not from Amerika, I don't really grasp how fouled up it is there, as an outsider americans are buncha weirdos for me, a different breed of apes, a souless culture for sure, which manifests in this *fucked up* sexuality.
Good essay. The idea that the incel is paralyzed by fear of failure seems correct. But why has this paralysis become endemic across our culture at this moment? There are many possible explanations, and a "root causes" response may be worth thinking about, even if it cannot be executed as a practical matter. But for young men who have given up and who form communities of people who believe themselves doomed to defeat, something aimed at them, at relieving their misery and giving them motives to use their one and only life and whatever gifts and talents they may have is an urgent need. If I knew the magic words, I would say them ...
I’m not sure, but I don’t think theres ever existed a situation where people were regularly forced to confront the discord between their sense of self and its virtual projection, and the feeling that all of their actions, sentiments and decisions are subject to scrutiny and judgment, even though they aren’t. The only solution I have come up is refusal and disconnection, which I’m incapable of myself.
Yes. It is easy to imagine oneself to be on a brightly lit stage all day, when living too much online. As Ian Curtis sang -- all my failures exposed. But in fact, if everyone is open to scrutiny, few actually are, unless the come to the attention of the supercomputers operated by the government, because no one has time to pay attention. Young men, and all of us, are almost as anonymous as we have always been. Refusal and disconnection is the theoretical answer which is almost impossible in practice, agreed. Nonetheless, I have never had a television, which helps. And never was on Twitter, or Instagram, which also helps. But I am old, and for young men, those are the realms of daily human interaction. Admonishing them to go outside won't work, unless others go outside at the same time. Very sad. I will continue to pray for the wellbeing of the young men and women of today, which I believe has efficacy, and if I cannot see it.
“Major shift in social norms.” Everything you said is correct. And it’s so terrible! Oh well we have to live with it I guess.
"Admonishing them to go outside won't work, unless others go outside at the same time."
This often doesn't work. I've been banned from two Starbucks stores for literally "talking to humans." Yeah I talked to people. And I guess they didn't like it or didn't want me talking to them. I never asked out a soul or flirted with one woman. I wish I would have but I never got a vibe. I just talked about normal things. I'm not a social retard. I think it's just age.
All this started happening at age 47 and it's only accelerated since. And young women HATE middle aged and older men. I was stunned at how much they hate us. I can't have any sort of conversation at all with just about any younger woman. Just forget it. They won't talk to me about anything ever!
It may work better for young guys. Old guys like us, not so much. There’s definitely been a major shift in social norms in the last few years. It is simply not possible to strike up conversations with strangers most of the time, and I would say never with women. All social interactions are mediated through cell phone apps. You don’t meet new people just by talking to them randomly in public. That is perceived as weird and threatening. Further, you are right, old dudes are definitely disliked. It’s a tough world!
Elderly is different from reasonably spry late middle aged. Obvious grandpa is obviously non-threatening. Different vibe. Late middle aged guy might, just might, be hitting on a young woman, which is totally ewwwww.
And really elderly people grew up in such a totally different world that they still just talk to people and don't know they're not supposed to.
Agreed that people who grew up entirely in cellphone-world are weirded out by conversation, generally, and can barely get out a coherent sentence amidst a cloud of umm, y'know, like, ahhh, yeah, so ... Sad!
Yeah but you’re a woman. I’m a man.
And if I strike up a conversation, there’s automatically a sexual overtone assumed with women. There’s an easy cure for that- just mention a husband or a boyfriend.
With men I don’t get it, but I’ve noticed a lot of young men won’t talk to middle aged and older men. There’s some insane new social rule with these idiot young people that says, “People should only talk to people their own age." It’s EXTREMELY CREEPY for someone to try to talk to anyone outside their age group.” That’s absolutely ridiculous and it’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
These new social rules seem to be all about making us a more and more unfriendly and antisocial society. It’s all being done under some “war on creepiness” rubric.
One thing I like about Arab culture is this idea of a “society of men.” In their society men create their own all male culture. Old men, middle aged men, young men, teenage boys, and even little boys all hang out together in large groups and anyone can talk to anyone. Of course there's pretty much zero male homosexuality in that culture, so that fixes one problem. A lot of young men and teenage boys will think I'm trying to have sex with them if I talk to them.
I have Indian friends and they told me that in India, a lot of young men would be extremely respectful towards me and would regard me as “wise.” I get that from some young Arab men - an extremely deferential attitude, calling me sir, etc. Even a few young Hispanic men do that to me - are extremely deferential and call me wise.
I don’t think we revere elders at all in our society. I think we hate them.
I can’t talk to a lot of young people of either sex, honestly. Lot of young men won’t talk to me either.
I’m pretty sure they think I’m going to hit on them sexually. It’s a warranted concern because if they’re extremely friendly and single, perhaps I might ask them out. I still do that you know.
When I was young and goodlooking, everybody talked to me. This crap started at age 47 and has accelerated every year since. Men will definitely talk to me though. Men of all ages, young men, middle aged men, and older men.
Some women my age will absolutely talk to me though, so I doubt if it’s me.
"The idea that the incel is paralyzed by fear of failure seems correct."
Of course he is. But so are lots of shy or introverted men who have had sex and some of whom have had LOTS of sex. Women don't exactly make it easy, and society doesn't encourage you at all. In fact, the entire society seems to be involved in a conspiracy to keep you from getting laid, especially nowadays.
Are you also writing about Yukio Mishima? The youths of The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea strike me as paradigmatic proto-incels.
That’s my favourite work of his, the first one I read when I was in first year of uni. I do write about Mishima, but sadly not on the books themselves…I did want to include more writers but the book is very long already. And I think also that there is a great deal more that goes into Mishima’s work that is specific to the Japanese tradition - as colleagues in that field told me - and is also at odds with the European writers I look at, and I sadly don’t read Japanese beyond a very basic level.
That's fair.
A followup question -- what about this same affect in pop/rock music, IE in Weezer's Pinkerton?
Good album!
It is and it’s been criticized as “incel music” or “incelcore” in recent years
"The youths of The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea strike me as paradigmatic proto-incels."
See? This is what everyone thinks. One or more of those boys was a psychopath. They get more pussy than all the rest of us put together. The worst men get the most women.
"Berger, as was his wont, often spoke and wrote in TV soundbites, and is therefore perfect for our meme-tic age."
Isn't that the truth.
I sought to dispel the aura around McLuhan in my stack. Library had a book of essays in the 800s Contra Mc Luhan and one of those did better than I could saying his behavior was to live in leafy suburbs and enjoy while people lost contact with each other in touchless memes. Now am going to think of him as the goose who laid early memes, his preferred communication bespeaks boosterism and the least thought possible.